Does a child with Aspergers know right from wrong?

Filed under:Social Skills — posted by admin on August 18, 2008 @ 3:22 pm

Hi I am back from my vacation and so normal Tuesday night Aspergers blogging should now be resumed. Just a quick apology as it seems that no matter what I try and get my techie guy to do, there are some people who can’t quite read the pages on the blog clearly.

But fortunately that is going to be another cool feature of the new project – as I am going to be using some software that is supposedly much more rigid than then the free software (WordPress) that I use right now. So for those still struggling to read the blog please accept my apologies – and hold on as things will get better!

This week’s post focuses on the following question:

Does my child know what’s right and what’s wrong? It seems he does not really know the difference.

On the surface, the issue of right and wrong appears to be a complicated one for Asperger’s children, but it is not. Children with Asperger’s Syndrome have very firm ideas of right and wrong, and they can become argumentative with adults and peers over issues of proper or improper behavior. They are typically unable to consider shades of grey and will perceive issues in black or white terms; however, they can discuss those issues with an adult and come to an agreement when solutions are proposed to them.

The good news is that Asperger’s children are known for being able to follow clearly explained and set rules that are consistent, and this trait can be used to help them learn right from wrong. As these children mature, they will learn right from wrong in a rote manner at first; but later they will develop a greater understanding of why something is right or wrong. An important factor is that the rules, and the explanation for the rules, should be explained in a manner that they understand, and the rules should be consistently enforced.

In fact, their inclination to learn right from wrong can be so profound, it might seem that Asperger’s children are pre-programmed to detect right and wrong, and they might even bluntly announce that a request or activity is right or wrong. Also, they will take notice of others’ incorrect behavior, but not their own; this can be perceived as a double standard. In addition, they may not be able to show empathy for others, and this can lead to problems as they may do or say things that seem wrong because they may not be able to understand or empathize with another person’s feelings.

Children and adults who do not have a diagnosis of Asperger’s Syndrome can relate to other people and engage effectively in social interactions with others because they are able to perceive things from another individual’s point of view. The ability to comprehend someone else’s point of view is the result of correctly perceiving speech patterns, body language, tone of voice, facial movements, and the situation in which communication is taking place. Children with Asperger’s Syndrome and other autistic disorders can lack the capacity to relate to and understand others’ feelings or behavioral nuances, particularly on an emotional level. Also, the child’s inability to interpret someone else’s actions, whether deliberate or unintentional, can result in the child’s experiencing paranoia. This can result in inappropriate behavior.

Children with Asperger’s Syndrome may not exhibit traditionally moral feelings or behaviors because Asperger’s denies them the ability to experience the capacity for emotion and introspection on which society’s perceptions of morality are based. These children do not experience the feelings associated with traditional right and wrong; yet, they may possess a sense of ethics as well as a cognitive understanding of right and wrong. Asperger’s Syndrome does not completely remove a child’s awareness of correct and incorrect behavior; it does allow them to behave with a sense of socially acceptable morality if they are helped to do so.

All the best

Dave Angel

comments (31)

31 comments »

My feeling is that they generaly know what is right form wrong,the difference is their idea and understanding of what is exactly right and wrong may differ from the typical version of this in the real world.
For instance, Friday (only the 3rd day of school!) my senior,18 yr old son chose to leave school at 2:00. I was informed of this and then confronted him when he came home. His story is the band teacher practiced with the band until 2 and then said “We’re finished” then he took the jazz band into the other rehearsal room and continued to practice with them. My son asked to be excused to the restroom and then returned for a bit. The teacher didn’t return to the main room and this to Jesse meant….I’m free to go. He said he took the time to get gas in his car and then return to get his brother.
The tricky thing is that I have raised him and know how he tends to think. Anyone else has a hard time believing that an otherwise “normal” looking kid can be this concrete in his thinking. It makes me a bit nervous in the everyday world, especialy when they are older and a parent has less control over what happens in their world!
Thanks for listening to my observation of my sons Asperger thinking of right and wrong.Kim
Comment by kim — August 18, 2008 @ 4:17 pm
How can I get my son to accept responsibility for his actions ? When questioned by his teachers about his lack of effort at school, he instantly feels that everyone hates him.
Comment by Jana Moffat — August 18, 2008 @ 4:33 pm
I have a 20 year old that knows right from wrong, but we can’t get her to stop talking inappropriately to boys. We have gone over and over why this is inappropriate. Can someone give suggestions
Comment by Jo de la Moriniere — August 18, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Our son is a senior now also and has decieded that our problem is that to be in nice words “to consistent and it is getting in the way of his social life” We have firm curfews for him and set consequences for failing to meet those curfews. When I have to go get him after curfew I often get a violent reaction and threats with “if you let me go back everything will be okay” I just spent another $400 on damage he has done around the house in his fits. The best way I can describe him is as a 5 year old with the body and will of a 17 year old. It is a bad combo. Does anybody have any ideas?
Comment by Eliott Schultz — August 18, 2008 @ 5:13 pm
Hi Jo, The problem you have here is that every situation will be different to your daughter. She won’t be able to generalise and so probably thinks she is doing as you ask her. Without knowing exactly what she is saying it is difficult to advise. Have you tried writing a social story (Carol Gray ) being very specific about how she should approach boys and what are acceptable things to say. Use positive language , tell her what she can say, rather than what she can’t say.
Comment by Kay — August 18, 2008 @ 5:39 pm
My son is 12 and does seem to know the difference between right and wrong but what i cant understand is that when it comes to something he does. He will tell you over and over that he didnt do it. He will go into a tantrum if you tell him that he did . An example is that he is a big boy about 200 lbs and climbed up into a chair to get a game out of a cabinet. The chair broke and it hurt his leg. I asked why he climbed into the chair and he told me he didnt. He said that he walked past the chair and it broke. Not sure how to handle this one. I had to drop the subject because he really believed what he had said.
Comment by Michelle — August 18, 2008 @ 6:29 pm
I wrote to this blog a log time ago and unfortunately things have progressed with my grandson for the worse.
He is 17 1/2, a drop out of school, seemingly happy with his non existent life, and has no clue about how to make a friend, keep a friend, or be a friend.
He has no desire to do anything around the house, actually fights against any kind of responsibility, and certainly doesn’t look for work.
He has extremely bad hygiene, and has a filthy mouth, literally.
Respect from him toward anyone, whether it be for his siblings, parents, me or anyone else is unheard of.
He torture’s animals and traps his siblings, harming them at times and threatens to do very bad things to all his family.
He is so far out of hand, I don’t know if there is any real help outside a controlled area.
What would you suggest we do with him? He would get hurt very badly if he went out in the real world.
The bad thing is that he was told, and took to heart, that he was very intelligent and could do anything he wanted, but he already thinks he is smarter than anyone capable of teaching him anything.
I would appreciate any feed back. i have several siblings, children, and even great grandchildren but this one has me baffled and concerned for the safety of others he is around.
Comment by Pauline — August 18, 2008 @ 7:18 pm
In regards to inappropriate talking to boys. Check out some of Tony Attwoods stuff. I think you could use the circle of friends exercise here. It’s a visual exercise where you put her name in the middle, a circle around it of appropriate people to talk to, then another circle of the next most appropriate and so on. Sounds likes she needs to speak like that, she just needs to say it to someone else who knows her. Good luck
Comment by Leesa — August 18, 2008 @ 10:52 pm
Jo de, How well does your daughter communicate? Is she known by most people as “Normal” (I hate that word but need to use it!) I think she might not care about the inappropriate talk. Does that make any sense? Let me know . I have a feeling that my son feels the same way because they are older. Kim
Comment by kim — August 18, 2008 @ 11:01 pm
I have 2 asperges boys both early primary the 3rd looks to be the same he is 4. the oldest is 8 1/2yo. he is very deffinate about what is right or wrong when it comes to every1 else but his own actions it is only when he is caught out that yes it was wrong to do it if no1 sees it its not wrong. he is almost a compulsive liar. i love him but he breaks my heart time & time again he has no regard for the feelings of others. can they learn the value of right & wrong & not just to expect others to do right by them?
Comment by Hi D — August 19, 2008 @ 12:15 am
My 7 year old knows right from wrong but will also argue semantics to try and make a wrongdoing right.
Comment by Dwayne Meeks — August 19, 2008 @ 4:05 am
My 8 year old son seems to be ruled by wants and needs rather than right and wrong. He seems to know if he has done something wrong, but he is more likely to tell somebody else off or hit them for doing wrong, and not recognise that he has also done something wrong. He will say sorry straight away if he is told off, but it’s a practised response and I don’t think he actually feels sorry for what he has done. He apologises because he doesn’t want to be given time out for doing wrong. That way he can get back to what he was doing more quickly.
In my son’s opinion, he can punish anybody for doing something he doesn’t like, by hitting them usually. It can be anybody from a toddler to a large man. If I ask him to stop bad behaviour because people are looking at us, he threatens to kill everybody and blow everything up. It doesn’t make it easy to take him out! Does anybody else have experience of this type of behaviour and know how long it takes before he will change, or will he still be like this when he is an adult? I have tried social stories and the like………
Comment by Caro — August 19, 2008 @ 5:45 am
My 12 year old grandson thinks I am in a bad or happy mood, if, i.e. my voice is slightly different or my facial expression changes slightly.
He can’t understand why people go on about him pretending to lick his hand and wipe it on them to get them to move out of his chair or making bunnyears with his hands while a peer is at the urinal, or standing close to someone string at them, not giving them their space. He doesn’t feel that he has done anything wrong.
Comment by Lillian Carde — August 19, 2008 @ 6:12 am
my son is 14 and has tested out under 6 yrs old socially. It is very confusing for him to be going through puberty and all of the emotional and physical changes that go with it! This summer we had an issue where he became curious about girls and how they felt so he touched a 5 year old. Of course he mother was very upset, as was I! When asked about the incident he said that he “finally convinced himself that it was wrong so he stopped”. I am having trouble dealing with my son looking very “normal” but acting so immature. Any help or suggestions?
Comment by christy — August 19, 2008 @ 9:22 am
Some very interesting comments on this thread. I know with my own son, and children I have worked with, role play is a good way to get them to realise what it is they are doing and also filming them and then playing it back – but in a non-judgemental way. My own son used to get into trouble at school for pushing in front of other children who were waiting to see the teacher. We started to do this to him at home and he very quickly got the message. He had not meant to be rude , he was just unaware that the other children were waiting too and he did not realise how they felt until he experienced it for himself. Quite often when we mention these inappropriate behaviours we reinforce them – much better to show the children what they should do – not keep stressing what they should not do.
Comment by Kay — August 19, 2008 @ 10:40 am
My son is 15 now but his 2nd grade teacher was the one that brought his black and white thinking to my attention even more by telling me that my son would let him, the teacher, know when he “broke” one of his own rules for the classroom. My son was already doing that with me at home but now I know he was doing it in public too. He has always seemed very “rule oriented” as I’ve always called it. I try to pass that information on to all his teachers every year so they can understand where he is “coming from”.
Comment by Jill Yohn — August 19, 2008 @ 12:55 pm
Lilian, I can understand what you are saying about your grandson knowing your mood if your voice changes. My son thinks people are “yelling” at him if they talk to him in a stern way. He kept telling me in 4th grade that the girl sitting behind him would “yell” at him to sit down correctly. (He always figgets) But when I talked to the teacher about this, he said that he would be surprised if that shy girl ever raised her voice. But because she was telling my son something about his behavior, he took it as “yelling”.
Comment by Jill Yohn — August 19, 2008 @ 1:01 pm
Dwayne, does your 7 year old argue back with you using language skills you would expect from an adult to argue these semantics with you?
Comment by Jill Yohn — August 19, 2008 @ 1:04 pm
Dear J.Yohn,
Your comments remind me of a student I once had who went home and told his mother that his new teacher did not like him. He then refused to come to school. In fact what the teacher had said was : ‘Mishal, I don’t like you talking when I am talking.” Mishal only processed the first few words. Just another illustration of how hard it is for someone with Asperger’s to make sense of the world. When we sat down with Mishal and explained what the teacher had really said, he did then understand and went back into school. The teacher confessed that from that day on she always thought about what she was going to say and tried to use minimal language and visuals whenever possible.
Comment by Kay — August 19, 2008 @ 5:25 pm
Please stop the silly “person-first” language. You say “children and adults who do not have a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome…” and proceed to make a blatantly false statement. Having or not having a “diagnosis” does not make one Aspie or not Aspie. It is as inherent a condition as being male, female, old or young. It is not something you or a doctor can grant or take away by anything you do. I am a mother. I am a wife. I am a woman. I am an Aspie. Not an individual diagnosed with or having Asperger’s. No more than I am person having motherhood. I am an attorney. More of an identity that to be just known as a person licensed to practice law. Makes the whole contrived respect thing sound kind of silly, huh?
Comment by Kari Marchant — August 19, 2008 @ 10:43 pm
Kay, you almost repeated an exact story of what happened with my child when he was younger. It was also a misunderstanding of what was said because he only processed the first part of the conversation. I also learned from it to keep my conversations and instructions with my son, short and to the point. Sometimes asking him to repeat them to make sure he “got them”.
Comment by Jill Yohn — August 20, 2008 @ 10:28 am
My 10 year old grand daughter has just been diagnosed with aspbergers. We have tried to talk to her teachers and principal about this but they refuse to work with us. Can anyone give us some insight on how we can get them to work with us without alienating them?
Comment by Shelley — August 20, 2008 @ 7:50 pm
My heart hurts for so many of the kids and young adults I read about on your blogs. I so wish I had an answer to help but counseling when they are younger may be the only way to help. I found taking my son to an anxiety class was actually helpful, I had to sit in on it, and I learned alot about what he goes through. But as they get older and bigger, they can definitely put up some big barriers around themselves, and seem very stubborn if they don’t want to do something or go somewhere.
Thank goodness my son seemed to be a little mature for his age when 8 years old, so I had him take a “stay at home alone” class. That enabled me to take short shopping trips without having the tantrum about not wanting to go with me.
Comment by Jill Yohn — August 20, 2008 @ 10:52 pm
I could probably write a story about what we have been through. In the beginning, we did not know that we could have an Aspergers thing going on. This started when she was 16 and her mother died, someone at school gave her a site from a web that would make her feel better. I found pictures of men and found some threads that shocked the devil out of me. She wants to be popular and accepted and thinks this is what the boys want. At 20, I am so concerned, her father and I have talked to her, but I am not convinced that we have gotten through. This problem is so severe that I have thought about doing my PhD dissertation on this very subject. The sad thing is I am not trained in this field, and she hasn’t been diagnosed as having Aspergers. She was born with fluid on the brain, and other than at times seemingly about 2 years behind others her age, appears to be “normal”. I have found that using some Asperger’s techniques has helped her. I do know that any brain energy will cause some symptoms of autism. Are other teen age parents wanting to see more help in this area? With the Internet and the age, I am very concerned and frankly scared!
Comment by Jo de la Moriniere — August 22, 2008 @ 11:50 am
hello Jo de la Moriniere,
I do not know if this helps at all, but I had a problem with that as a kid to. With me though, I was used to making guys feel good as I grew up sexually abused. It started at around 5 and kept happening until I was about 17 or so. I was diagnosed with autism at 3 and did not talk until i was around 8. Somehow the doctor people say that I “grew out of it a little” and now my diagnosis is Pdd-nos. When I was in 8th grade I started doing sex stuff to my friends though I did not have many to make them feel good because I thought that was what I was supposed to do. I kept doing the same stuff though I hated it until almost 19 years old. It turns out that someone told me that they really weren’t my friends though I did not know that at the time. I hope that no one hurt your daughter in the same way…not that I am saying you did, but I mean someone else who maybe you know but someone she has not told you about. I hope that came out right. anyway, at 19 i met sara my wife and things have been really good since then. due to some of the bad sex stuff my father did to me at 5,ive been in diapers ever since because of nerve damage. I was really lucky to find my wife being that im a diapered autistic 30 year old. Somehow she loves me just the same as if I was “normal.” For everyone here, it will be ok. One way or another your kid will do fine. The world is just stupid and doesnt get “us” yet, but eventually they will have to because there are so many of us. Some of the “normal peoples” rules we can learn and finally understand, and others we just don’t get at all. But I am glad that is the way it is, because I don’t want to be like someone else,,,I’m me.
Jayson
Comment by Jayson Lee — August 23, 2008 @ 11:23 am
Dear Jo,
Your comments really struck a chord with me. I teach in a special school, do outreach into mainstream schools and also am the mother of an Autistic son. I am always concerned when children who don’t get the full picture have access to unvetted material. Fortunately my son is now 23 and so internet access was not an issue as he grew up. Today he does like to surf but I keep an eye on the history inventory and so far he only appears to have a penchant for Lladro figurines and
old style cartoons! I think this is where obsessions really have their value -provided they are harmless. Steering your daughter towards areas of interest, rather then forbidding certain sites may be the answer. We often reinforce the very thing we disapprove of just by mentioning it. It is possible that she has ASD and strategies used with these children often fit the bill for all children with special needs. I am sure you already try, but raising her self esteem by encouraging anything she is good at, really does work. My own son is now a cartoonist , author and illustrator. All those years of rewinding the disney cartoons really paid off. If you want to see a sample of his work go to http://www.georgeformby.co.uk and press the link for Levi’s Monkey MIke. We often give talks to schools and parents on the positive aspects of ASD and he has turned into a fine young man. Still a ‘ Billy no-mates’ but I am sure I can find a good wife for him somewhere. Don’ t lose heart and do continue with your PhD. Most experts have hands on experience just like you. All the best Kay.
Comment by Kay — August 24, 2008 @ 5:00 am
Just a little addition to my above post – when internet use does become a problem, as it did with one boy in mainstream, it can be a good idea to take immediate action. His mother and I met and we decided a little white lie was in order. He was told that there was a problem with the server and so internet access was off. Of course he was distraught initially, but after 2 day he stopped pestering and by the time ‘normal service’ was resumed he had found a
new interest in silent movies. He never returned to the violent sites he had craved – going cold turkey really worked for him. The key is to replace the bad with the more acceptable — not easy but worth a try.
Comment by Kay — August 24, 2008 @ 5:40 am
Thanks Kay, worth a try. I have been looking for programs for girls regarding self esteem. They used to be everywhere, now that you want them, they are no where to be found!
Comment by Jo de la Moriniere — August 25, 2008 @ 8:11 am
I have a 14 year old who also knows “right from wrong” but in the concrete black in white terms. It is when there are variables, that most of us process, that he gets confused. He will kind of round to the closest choice and go with that. I have been trying to help him see and maneuver in a grey situation, mostly after it has happened. I am giving him (kid friendly)biography books to read on Aspergers and it seems to be a help. He’s starting to realize that it’s not just him. But I had to be careful and keep reminding him that it’s not an excuse to quit trying. Is there a technique out there to help him with the “grey” areas.
We also have problems with him thinking he is right in all situations and can argue why he is. Sometimes I think he feels justified and that he is being picked on by everyone else, because he knows he is right.
Comment by Heather — November 11, 2009 @ 1:38 pm
I have a 15 year old boy. He is currently off medication. I am thinking about putting him back on. Should I put him on medication when he does not want it?
Comment by Lynn — November 27, 2009 @ 12:55 pm
Friends daughter in news…she 23 has Aspergers….gave birth to baby and threw in garbage can…is it possible she did not understand what she did was wrong?
Comment by Patrice — December 14, 2014 @ 12:41 pm